Douglas Wilson interacted with Christopher Hitches on a number of occasion leading ultimately to this documentary. Over at this blog in 2009 he spent some time adding to his interactions. Here is an example:
Christopher said somewhere that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. This is quite true, but Christopher misses the point of it. He thinks the resurrection is the extraordinary claim, when actually it is the extraordinary proof. You should not listen to a man who claims to be God (the extraordinary claim) unless He does something like come back from the dead. The resurrection is God’s declaration that Jesus is the Son of God (Rom. 1:4), and when we preach the resurrection, as we are charged to do, we are preaching the proof, not something that needs to be proven. God adds to the proof by anointing all such faithful preaching with His power, testifying to the testimony. It is the power of the Spirit that will convert the world by this means.
Calling something ‘proof’ and it actually being proof or evidence are two different things.
Claiming that one is god and claiming that somebody returned from the dead are two different claims. Each needs evidence to back it up.
Now, if you have enough good evidence to confirm that someone was resurrected, that might be a piece of evidence towards saying that person was a god or god-like being. But you actually have to give evidence for the resurrection claim first.
Wrong sir. You have been deceived. The resurrection becomes the fundamental proof by which all claims must submit. The resurrection is the presupposition of any claim. There can be no logical claims apart from the veracity of the resurrection. The resurrection is the standard by which all claims find meaning. No claim can be made apart from the fact that the resurrection has occurred in time and in history.
The above translates, or so it seems to me, to you sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating “it happened it happened it happened”.
If you expect anyone who isn’t already indoctrinated into being a Christian to believe that, you’ll be surprised.
I don’t expect you to believe it… Your fundamental assumptions about life, facts, proofs, etc. are shaped by an inherent hatred for the God of Scriptures. In your worldview, no proof or any form of indoctrination will change your mind…you will always suppress the truth. My hope is that the Spirit will transform your mind and make you a living testimony to His resurrection.
Factually, the Scriptures says over 500 witnesses saw the resurrected Christ. In my world, that is proof enough; in your world you are expecting 501.
“Factually, the Scriptures says over 500 witnesses saw the resurrected Christ. In my world, that is proof enough; in your world you are expecting 501.”
Then let me introduce you to the thousands of people you can talk to right this second who have been abducted by aliens.
Would these abductees die for their belief as the disciples?
See: Heaven’s Gate Cult, mass suicide.
…and here lies the difference: these were self-imposed suicides. The early disciples were persecuted for their faith and ultimately killed for their faith. a VAST, VAST difference.
And I see no good difference. Not that it matters. Someone willing to die for their believe merely means they believe it. It doesn’t make their believe true, or more believable.
That being said, Joseph Smith would be confirmed by your idea. As would countless Muslims.
You are completely missing the point…
It doesn’t simply mean they believe it, but that something extraordinary happened (proof) to cause them to believe it. Their belief was based on something they had seen with their own eyes; not something they wished for or dreamed of or saw in a vision.
“It doesn’t simply mean they believe it, but that something extraordinary happened (proof) to cause them to believe it.”
And you are missing the point. It does not mean something happened. It means they believed something happened. Just like people believe that they were abducted by aliens, despite being ridiculed in the media and losing friends and careers.
The problem with the atheist worldview is that they suppress truth (Romans 1). You are not looking for evidentiary claims…otherwise, this http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6381952666597428720# and other such materials would suffice. Rather, when the atheist is confronted with evidence he twists it to fit his view point.
Finally, the resurrection changed the make-up of the world system, alien abductions and other such events barely left a dent.
a better link is found here: http://www.viddler.com/explore/Jude3/videos/12/